Transformers 2 - Now with *SPOILERS*

[George Caswell]

Fortunately, Optimus was the easiest to differentiate on screen from everyone else due to his unique colors. I can't even say that about Bumblebee, due to the presence of at least one other yellow Transformer (a reviewer on a Transformers fan site even made that remark). No, what I'm talking about is that at least four different 'bots (not counting Ravage and the scorpion) were primarily silver--along with however many Decepticon soldiers there at the end. And when they all start shooting, punching, swinging bladed weapons, and whirling around each other like stainless steel tornadoes it can become a little hard to tell who did what to whom. This isn't just "one man's crazy opinion". It's a consensus held by both fans and critics.

The visual complexity of the bots in the movie certainly doesn't help.  It's a trade-off...  On the one hand, of course, the intricate bots do look cool.  But on the other hand, because there's so much visual information things tend to get lost in the clutter.

I feel like they neglected the basic rules of character design when they did the movie bots.  Yes, they're alien robots, but they're also characters - and characters need to be recognizable and designed such that the audience can relate to them.

[zerobxu]

Yes, they're alien robots, but they're also characters - and characters need to be recognizable and designed such that the audience can relate to them.

Isn't that how Optimus Prime ended up with a proper mouth in the first place? 

[George Caswell]

Yes, they're alien robots, but they're also characters - and characters need to be recognizable and designed such that the audience can relate to them.

Isn't that how Optimus Prime ended up with a proper mouth in the first place? 

I had been talking mostly about the overall shapes of the characters, but "Characters the audience can relate to" is largely about the faces, yeah...

Convoy is for sure one of the lesser offenders in terms of bad head design - a lot of his head design is held over from the classic versions.  So for fans the image is still very iconic.  I can deal with there being a mouth (I am down with Beast Wars) but I don't like the specific design they came up with.  If they added the mouth to make the audience relate to him better, they maybe made the right decision - but I think the rest of the design doesn't reflect that choice very well.  Overall it's a bit cluttered, and the overall effect of the nose is a bit disturbing.

More of an issue is all the other bots - a lot of them have thoroughly alien faces.  The Decepticons don't have "villain" faces, they have "monster" faces.  Half the robot heads look like the back end of something or other.  Even the Autobots, for the most part, don't have "heroic" or "friendly" faces.  Ironhide is maybe the best example.  I find his head too pointy and "mean" looking for a likable character.  A Google image search turned up a version someone did that had the same overall aesthetic but with the head design closer to the classic looks - I think it turned out great...

I don't feel that things need to be just like they were in the cartoons - it's not that I think Ironhide should always have that specific face, that specific helmet - but his old design was very likable.  The new one practically looks evil.

[Kev-Kev]

To tell the truth, wouldn't it be too simple to see an animated Optimus Prime? In reality, many things complex: spiders, flowing hair, car parts, and other compex parts get blurred up when the eyes can't keep up with the motion. I think in reality too that parts of cars and trucks can form a very tall alien structure. With the way a vehicle's details are now compared to vehicles in the past is incomparable. So in today's theme, robotss have to and will eventually reach a state like Transformers where you you'll end up getting lost in the battle between robots.Another factor arises too, "How can anyone expect a good battle if the fighter fight too slow?" In this case, boxers would have to slow down their punch to let the audience see his fist. Fast combat is the only way to fight.

   I myself got lost, but after watching the first movie seven times it helped me keep up with their speed.

[George Caswell]

I can't make a lot of sense out of your comment...

Suffice it to say that the practical needs of cinema must often take precedence over realism or the appearance of practicality where the two conflict.

[rx-slinger]

Just so everyone knows, there weren't 6 or seven Constructicons that united to form Devastator. He was hiw own entity that incoporated vehicles into his transformation. You can see this in the desert batte.

Here's a list of everyone who was fighting at the same time when Devastator was fighting the twins:

*Mixmaster
*Longhaul
*Rampage
*Hightower

Also, Scavenger was destroyed early, but a vehicle similar to him was used to make Devastator.

Devastator was unique because he didn't depend on other robots to merge into him. He was designed to be able to incorporate anything that was readily available and could suit his needs. What was once a major complaint for the toy is now not that much of an issue.

There's talk of TF3 having the Dinobots and Unicron. They can do whatever they want, but if the Dinotbots combine, I'll be unhappy. The Dinobots are all kinds of awesome without combining.

The problem is that there were six constructicons in the original show.

Scrapper
Scavenger
Bonecrusher
Mixmaster
Long haul
Hook

They would combine into Devastator he was first combiners and the only one made of six robots. But there were seven different constructicons use to form devastator in thes movie. There were more than one of Mixmaster, Long Haul, Scavanger (Demolisher), and Bonecrusher (Rampage). There was also a (Buffalo mine protected vehicle) that was Bonecrusher in the first movie was seen fighting and Grindor was the same (HH-53 "Super Jolly Green Giant"
MH-53 Pave Low helicoter) used for Blackout. They probably used more than one of the same vehicle in the movie because they already had a cg rendering and mapping of them and decided to use them as fillers to make the decepticon army larger with out spending more money and time creating new charaters for the movie. that is my theory to why this happen in the movie.

[Paul Lopez]

Who cares if there were 6 Constructicons in the original show? Hasbro has clearly stated that while the movie has ties to G1, it is placed in a different universe from G1. That's like saying Consructicon Maximus in the AEC universe is incorrect because there are only 5 units.

Grindor is a resurrected Blackout. I was at the Hasbro panel at Botcon a few weeks ago. They made it clear that Blackout and Grindor are the same Decepticon.

It's true that there was a Buffalo in ROTF, but it did not transform and was not a TF. The army was using it.

To say that they were saving money on CG is nonsense. The 2007 movie used 14 terabytes of data to make all of the robots while ROTF has over 140 terabytes of information. 40 of those terabytes belong to Devastator.

What I like about Devastator is that it takes a truly unique approach to what fans call combining. Instead of several bots merging, only one robot conscience is required in order to bring other vehicle together to create the body. When Hasbro designed Devastator, they wanted to try out the idea of a combiner that didn't need to depend on other robots to combine. Instead, he could treat whatever vehicles that were near him like a Swiss army knife and create a destructive form that would suit his needs.

I got this information at Botcon.

[zerobxu]

There was also a (Buffalo mine protected vehicle) that was Bonecrusher in the first movie was seen fighting and Grindor was the same (HH-53 "Super Jolly Green Giant"
MH-53 Pave Low helicoter) used for Blackout. They probably used more than one of the same vehicle in the movie because they already had a cg rendering and mapping of them and decided to use them as fillers to make the decepticon army larger with out spending more money and time creating new charaters for the movie. that is my theory to why this happen in the movie.

I think you're right. Although they supposedly changed the heads on these "identical" models so you could tell them apart. I'm not sure if they even showed that on-screen. It's probably more obvious(?) in your local toy aisle.

Suffice it to say that the practical needs of cinema must always often take precedence over realism or practicality where the two conflict.

... I just wanted to make sure crimson biscuit had two chances to read that, on the off-chance it sinks in.

[Paul Lopez]

No the heads on the identical models weren't different. They were protoforms who had not scanned a form and thus couldn't transform.

The drones won't be available for a toy release. That was addressed at Botcon.

Keep in mind that Blackout was a greyish blue in the first movie. His resurrected form as Grindor was grey. The comic and books address this as Blackout scanned a new helicopter as his military ID code was retired which limited his infiltrating abilities.

[rx-slinger]

Well first off I was correcting youre statement

Just so everyone knows, there weren't 6 or seven Constructicons that united to form Devastator. He was hiw own entity that incoporated vehicles into his transformation. You can see this in the desert batte.

.
[/quote]
by give people information on them and there is no proof in the movie about him being his own entity considering how the scene was done they apear to be individuals if that is how they wanted devastator to appear in the movie they should have done a better jod. Oh and its toy is seven robots that make him.

Also

Who cares if there were 6 Constructicons in the original show?

I care and there maybe other people that care about it aswell. For you to say who cares is just a childish response not to mention disrespectful to my opinion and thoughts especially since I was the one who started this topic. How would you feel if I posted on your ( Botcon was awsome) who cares thousands of people have gone there over the years your nothing special. That would be disrespectful to you if I did that. Second I know people that did not like the Transformer movie because they did not like the design of Ravage. If no one cared About Transformers, the charater, and there stores Botcon would not be a yearly event. Not to mention if some didnt care about gundam and gunpla building this site would not be here just like gundam.com that is long gone. There are always people that care. But I guess that only someone who has been a fan from beginning would understand about the characters and there design unlike all these people that just jump on the bandwagon because theres a movie.Tthats the main reason alot of people bought the 2010 camaro because of bumble bee.  As for saving money do you know how much time and money goes into the design of characters and movie props. By using existing character design (Grindor, constructicons) they save money by not having to creat new character and spend time and more money animating them. That probably is the the reason for the buffalo appearance in the movie. The m1 abrams tank that was devastator in tranformers was the same tank used in XXX State Of The Union with a few mods add. They saved money by using what they had access to in stead o creating something completely new.

[Paul Lopez]

I love how you took what I said completely out of context. I'm going to make this final post in this thread and I won't be participating anymore because of how you clearly think I'm an idiot when it comes to Transformers.

My proof for Devastator being his own entity is a combination of information gathered at Botcon and from the movie. Hasbro clearly stated during the movie panel that the individual Constructicons in the movie do not make Devastator. Devastator is basically one vehicle that has tentacles shoot out and incorporates them onto himself. That's why you see Long Haul, Rampage, and Mixmaster fighting while Devastator is off destroying a pyramid.

I find it hilarious that you think I'm disrespecting you over 6 robots from the 80's. You clearly did not understand the point I was trying to make. The fact that there are 6 Constructicons that form Devastator in G1, should in no way force a specific design upon the movie universe. I could care less if the movie Devastatot had 6,7, or even 100 Constructicons on him. What mattered was that he looked cool and fit his namesake.

Now, I'm going to say you're an idiot. Why? Because you went off accusing me of being someone who jumped onto the movie bandwagon. I've been collecting TF since I was 7 months old and the first cartoons I watched were G1 episodes on VHS. Just because you were born in the 80's doesn't make you more of a fan, that only makes you sound like an idiot for trying to use age as a means of feeling more important. Also, your profile says your 22, which mean you didn't really grow up with Transformers either since the franchise pretty much died in 1988. Sure Action Masters were around for a while, but no one really cared about them as there was no real story for them.

I'm having a hard time figuring out why you are using my Botcon thread as a way of attacking me over 6 robots as well. The conventions are around because people like me support the franchise. Don't believe me? I've got over 1000 figures that will prove you wrong. I've enjoyed every series and love to see how the characters evolve. The fact that names from the G1 era are used on different characters is fascinating to me. I'm not a G1 purist as you obviously claim to be with your frustration over Devatator not being a 80's look-alike.

BTW, the toy requires 6 not 7 robots to make him unless you're referring to the Legends class version.

Get your facts straight before you go bashing me.

[zerobxu]

... And that's the end of the argument. If I hear anything else out of either of you two--rx-slinger and robofreak--in this thread (or in my PM inbox) that even resembles continuing this "friendly discussion" about what exactly constitutes Devastator and who's a bigger fan, I'll hand out a three-day ban as a cool-down period.

I'll remind you again that all opinions are equally respected, but as soon as it gets dragged down to an argument where you're thumping your own chest and declaring yourself a bigger fan than the other guy... Well... At that point, you've just turned it into an ego contest. Nothing more.